105: Inside The Islay Rum Company: A Unique Take on Scottish Rum with Ben Inglis

With John on vacation, I flew solo on this episode to welcome Ben Inglis, distillery manager and co-founder of The Islay Rum Company, to the show to get the full story on his unique approach to Scottish rum.

If you listened to our Guide to UK Rum episode, you'll remember that John and I rated both of the Islay Rum Company rums we tried quite favorably, so we'd been hoping to talk to Ben ever since. We discussed:

• How Ben convinced the Vintage Malt Whisky Company to back his vision of Islay's first rum distillery instead of building a Scotch whisky distillery

• Scottish Gaelic pronunciations

• The pressure that comes with putting the word "Islay" on a bottle of rum

• Contending with the island's flavor profile expectations

• Building out the distillery in a historic lemonade factory

• Why getting a custom made double retort pot still was a must

• Crafting their initial flavor profile

• Experiments with long fermentation, native bacteria, yeasts, and more

• Balancing inspiration with originality

• What's aging right now? And when can we taste it??

• And a whole lot more!

P.S. Did you know you can support The Rumcast on Patreon now and get bonus episodes, happy hours, and more? You can! Head to patreon.com/therumcast to check it out.

Episode Transcript

Episode Number: 105

Episode Title: Inside The Islay Rum Company: A Unique Take on Scottish Rum with Ben Inglis

Interviewee: Ben Inglis, Founder and Distiller at Islay Rum Company

Publication Date: March 30, 2024

Episode Transcript follows:

Will: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the Rum Cast. This is the podcast that talks all things rum related with the people who love and shape it. I am one of your hosts, Will Hoekenga actually flying solo today on this podcast. Uh, my esteemed cohost, John Gulla. is actually taking in everything the country of Italy has to offer right now, going all over the place there.

I'm sure when he's back he'll have lots to report back. Hopefully he's hunting down some good rum bottles there, uh, in the home of, Vellier, although I don't think he's making it to Genoa during his trip. But anyway, I am flying solo on this intro as I did During the interview for this episode as well with Ben Inglis, the distillery manager for the Islay rum company.

This is a distillery located as the name suggests on the island of Islay in Scotland, which you likely know for making a much different spirit. And that's really part of the origin story for a second that, that I want to just zoom [00:01:00] out real quick and bring you up to speed about. One of the things that's so fascinating about this distillery. So imagine for a second that you own an independent bottling company based in Scotland that specializes naturally in Scotch.

You've been bottling Whiskys for years successfully, and you decide that you want to go beyond bottling and also start producing your own Whisky. Why not? Right? So you're imagining building a Whisky distillery in Islay, the island home to legendary distilleries like Lafroig. Lagavulin and others. But before you can carry your plans out, you happen to meet an aspiring distiller in his late 20s who has been quietly planning to start a distillery of his own on Islay as well.

With one major difference. He wants to start a rum distillery. 99 percent of the time, this story would end with the Whisky bottler saying, Hey, good luck with that, buddy. Just, you know, continuing on with their plans to build a Whisky distillery. But in this case, somehow [00:02:00] this young, aspiring distiller, who at the time had never worked in a distillery, Convinces the Whisky bottlers that it's actually a better idea to build a rum distillery in the place with a global reputation for making some of the best Whisky in the world.

So that's the story of Islay Rum Company and Ben Inglis, the aspiring and now actual rum distiller that I interviewed for this episode. And it's a, it's a cool story in its own right, but the primary reason I wanted to talk to Ben is that the rum they're making there in Islay is actually quite impressive.

And if you've listened to our guide to UK rum episode, a few episodes back, you heard John and I try two other rums, both unaged because the distillery has only been around for about two years now in terms of actually making rum, they haven't released. An aged product yet. Um, so they have like a flagship unaged rum, and then they have a rum that was a limited kind of experimental release.

That was very [00:03:00] long fermentation time. Um, all of this rum is pot distilled. They have a double retort pot still there in the distillery. That's, you know, reminiscent of some of the styles of pot stills you might find in the Caribbean, which you don't usually find at a, you know, new Young rum distillery in a location like this and I think the natural expectation when people hear, you know, double retort pot still the distiller is into funky rums like they expect something that's going to be trying to be like a Jamaica rum or something like that.

But when you taste the rum, particularly the experimental release between the two, it's earthy and fruity. fruity and herbal all at the same time. It does have what I would describe as a funk to it, but it's not really a Caribbean funk, um, or a Jamaica funk or, you know, a St. Lucia funk or anything like that.

And I think, you know, that's. Kind of one of the cool things about this, because a lot of times you see new distilleries trying their hand at doing all this out there, funky, experimental [00:04:00] stuff.

And a lot of times, you know, that those techniques that it has a steep learning curve. It's, it's not something that I think is easy to do just out of the box. And so a lot of times when I see that stuff, stuff. I get a little guarded and I try to manage my expectations and I go in expecting something that maybe just tastes weird, but not really good.

And this is one of those exceptions where I, I am a fan of the rum. Uh, John enjoyed it as well. Obviously this is all subjective stuff. And our tastes are not universal, but I, I was excited. To talk to Ben, not just because it's a cool story and interesting that a rum distillery is now exists in a place that is, you know, known for this very specific type of Whisky, but also because I think what they're doing is interesting.

I think they're going about it the right way. And, uh, what I've tasted so far is, is very impressive and I'm looking forward to what comes next. So we get into all kinds of stuff in the interview. You know, one of the. Really interesting things to me is just putting the name Islay on a bottle and [00:05:00] the expectations that come with that, not only in terms of reputation, but just when people hear Islay and a spirit coming from that country or not country, but region, they.

expect a certain type of flavor profile sometimes. You know, Islay Scotches are known for that peaty, you know, iodine, smoke, all that stuff. It's a, it's a very, uh, you know, it can be quite aggressive and pungent and very recognizable. So, you know, how do you kind of Manage all the expectations and stuff that come with that when you're making a rum there for the first time.

So we got into that. We got into all the nerdy stuff of the production process. We talked about kind of where things are going next with the distillery, uh, really great conversation. So if you are able to check out their stuff, I recommend it for sure. It's an interesting experience. And also, quickly, before we get over to the interview, I wanted to give a shoutout to a listener from the UK, actually, named Shane. Who sent us an email recently, [00:06:00] letting us know that he had just kind of discovered the podcast through Steven James of the rum diaries blog. So shout out to Steven as well for spreading the word.

And in the last 50 days, Shane somehow managed to listen to all 104 episodes that had been released to date of the rum cast, which means he had to average slightly over two episodes per day, which is. A truly astonishing pace to me, and I have no way of confirming this, but I think that has to be the world record for fastest time listening through the Rumcast catalog.

So very impressive stuff to Shane. And, uh, Hey, since you're in the UK, my hope is that you enjoy this episode enough to hop on over to Islay and give Ben a visit at the distillery and check out what they're doing there. Also a very. interesting setting. The distillery is actually in a building called the Old Lemonade Factory, which is where this, uh, lemonade brand used to be made in Islay, which I learned in my research for this interview that lemonade in the UK is not like [00:07:00] lemonade in the States.

It's, it's more like a, it's like a, like a sparkling soda, kind of, I think closer to something like Sprite, maybe, if I'm reading correctly, whereas in the US it's just, you know, Lemon juice, water, and a whole lot of sugar all mixed together. But anyway, lots of great stuff in this conversation with Ben and I hope y'all enjoy it.

[00:00:00]

Will: All right, I'm here with Ben

Inglis, Distillery Manager at the Islay

Spirits Company and Ben, well, we were actually just talking about this, but I'm very big on pronunciation and it kills me when I mispronounce something on the podcast.

So anytime we're doing an interview and there's some, you know, name of a rum or a last name or something, I'm always like going on YouTube and trying to find someone else saying it so that I can say it properly.

And, you know, a couple of months back, John and I did our UK rum episode. And we tried two of your rums.

And I think they presented me with the greatest challenge yet of trying to figure out the pronunciation in advance because they have Scottish Gaelic names. And so I tried my best on the episode, but I just want to start by, I want to. Try pronouncing them and I want you to correct my pronunciation, which I'm sure is not a hundred percent wrong So I'm going to start with your your flagship unaged rum the 45 percent

ABV.

It's spelled G E A

L Which I [00:01:00] believe was G E A L? G E A L?

Is that close at all? Am I in the what's the proper way?

Ben: Yeah, you're in the ballpark there. So, it's, uh, it's Geal.

Will: Geal.

Ben: Yeah, so you're not far away at all

there. You're pretty good. It's

Will: graduate to the one that seems a little tougher,

which is the,

experimental release Uine Mhor? Is that close at all?

Ben: not too far Uine Mhor.

Will: You don't have to be too nice.

Ben: Yeah, no, it's pretty good. to be fair. So, when I was listening to the, Or, and I was thinking,

yeah, not too, not too bad there at all.

Will: Wait, so it is, so it is Mhor then. It's pronounced with an M sound. Is that, okay. See, I

I The closest I could do, I typed into chat GPT asking it,

and it was telling me that in Gaelic the,

M H sound is like a V, which sounds like maybe completely wrong

now. So I was steered down an

incorrect road. So Uine Mhor is less

complicated than I originally

anticipated. okay. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad we've got that out of the way. I've made myself look [00:02:00] a little

bit funnier. Foolish now. So just trying to make this

seem like a comfortable, safe space to

talk in. Um, there's so much, like, I'm so curious about what you're doing and anyone who listened to the, the UK rum

episode knows that John and I were both really

impressed with the, the rum that you're putting out over there.

You've only been around when was the first distillation, like official distillation was that 2022. Is that right?

Ben: January of 22.

Will: Okay. you, so the, the backstory sounds pretty interesting as I understand it. You have been interested in rum for a very long

time and we're maybe kind of working on your

own, you know, rum recipe, sort of like what, what is your background in rum?

How did

you get started making rum

in Islay?

Ben: so, I suppose I about, I lived in most of my life,

I 32 this year, and I've been here

maybe four or five or something like that. So I grew up around, distilleries and Whisky and everything else on a, but you know, as [00:03:00] you, as you grow up. You don't tend to start drinking single

malt Scotch whisky when you're a teenager.

And,

Will: not, it's not the first, yeah, it's not the first thing that

you pick up.

Ben: yeah, exactly. So, you know, when I started drinking, I started drinking rum. And I started, like a lot of people do, with Bacardi and Morgans and, everything like that. And different spice rums. And, you know, I really enjoyed spice rums in my kind of late teenage years and even into my early twenties. but then I was gifted a bottle of, Appleton Estate. By my wife, my girlfriend at the time, but my now wife then.she was the, it was the old bottle, it was the XO I think it was called at the time. And, that was my first taste really of, I suppose, proper rum. Or, or, you know,

discounting Bacardi and and, uh, after that I suppose I just got a lot more interested in, like, kind of the production side of things and how it was made and where it was made. And really started hammering into different countries and [00:04:00] different styles of rum, you know, call themselves pot still, sugarcane, juice rather than molasses.

So that piqued my interest at the kind of early stage of, uh, different rums and how they were produced and manufactured in different places around the world. And

I started looking into, I started looking into, like, those specific kind of manufacturing process that made rums taste the way they were, or if it was a location, like, where, where was in the world, how did that have an impact on the way that the spirit tasted at the end?

so in my early 20s, I kind of, you know, I did a lot of reading, and

the same as everyone else, and maybe, I suppose, I've got a little bit of a kind of mechanical mind on me, so I like to know how things work. And even as, from a young, young boy, like we were, kind of, I grew up in Bruichladdich and I was constantly around the distillery there, kind of, in and out

and getting kicked out, when you're not supposed to be in and

Will: peeking in, peeking in the windows and everything.

Ben: I was a kid, so, and I even had a curiosity then, I suppose, [00:05:00] not necessarily in, like, sort of, drinking the whisky, but more, like, what was

happening in there. and you can, there's so many smells and sounds and, you know, when you're around a distillery. So that piqued my interest, I suppose, from a young age.

and I guess my curiosity grew from there till, like I say, in my early 20s. I started thinking about, rum and more of like a, career choice, you know, could I get into a distillery and I started off with a few interviews in distilleries around the island for the Whisky distilleries. And then I never had much luck, there was always quite a, you know, the very popular jobs, there was quite a high kind of demand.

so at one point I was just like, well, you know, maybe I should just try myself doing rum. and that was, like I say, in my early 20s, and I kind of went through many years just trying to figure it out and seeing how you could fund it and looking at how you would even, how you would even go about starting a distillery with the legal side of it.

so I did a lot of reading on the more, like, the kind of technical side and the legal side of it from [00:06:00] then, to kind of just build my knowledge about it. But I never had any kind of formal experience or formal training, if you like, in distillation or rum at all. I'd never even visited another rum distillery, but you can find so much information on the internet. So,yeah, and talking to other people, and like a little bit later on, after I'd kind of got the initial idea in there, talking to other people in industry in Scotland, you know, in those early days, there was already a few rum distilleries kind of cropping up around the country.

So, yeah, J. Gow, Sugar House,

Will: Mm hmm.

Ben: even like, sort of, Dark Matter and things like that. They had already started, I suppose, at that time. So I spoke to a couple of the guys who gave me a lot of help and a lot of guidance with, you know, various different subjects and setting up a rum distillery. I feel there's quite a good, good relationship between a lot of the guys in Scotland,

uh, you can always ask advice and stuff like that from each other.

So yeah, it was from then, uh, I kind of, I started really seriously thinking, maybe four [00:07:00] years into that original kind of idea, I started thinking, right,

okay, I'm going to start really pushing for this. So I put together a business plan and I went

to like our local, council for, for funding and things Like,

that. you know, they, they told me you need a few different things to, in order for us to give you funding and I, you know, I went as far as getting a

interview with Southern Glazers down in Miami for the

Will: Oh, wow.

Ben: Went over there because it was just pure, almost pure chance by meeting the right people at the right time.

And I managed to get an interview there. I never materialized intention, but I suppose it showed myself how like serious I was about

going the whole nine yards with it.

Will: so when you put together a business plan for a rum distillery and take it to people

around Islay, what is the initial reaction to that? Are they kind of bewildered at the idea?

Do they think it's cool? are they like, what are you talking about? how

did that go?

Ben: at this time, like,

you could see the trend with rum. Like, gin was

always the exploring. craft beer and [00:08:00] gin were really popular here. And like, I thought, well, you know, surely these being popular, these kind of craft distilleries or smaller boutique kind of places will make it kind of appealing and seem like it could be a, you know, a successful business.

But you go to some of the local governing bodies and, you know, Try and pitch the idea of doing a rum distillery on and this is a moment when gin is still exploding and they're like, what are you even talking about? So yeah, I mean, it wasn't successful. I'm not going to lie. The first good few years, it didn't get anywhere really.

I had some really good. On, my wife, she, at the time, she worked as a receptionist for a local hotel who was owned by, a local guy Roland, his name is, and anyway, he, he, he was, uh, he was also an accountant, like on the side kind thing. And he came and he spoke to me and I went and had numerous meetings with him and he helped with the business plan.

And things again, kind of make sense of a lot of numbers. And so there were some people who were really keen and really on board. And really helpful to [00:09:00] those early stages of, like, me getting the ball rolling. so there was support, definitely. But, you know, you take it to somebody and you're asking for X amount of money and they're like, Yeah, I don't think so,

it was frustrating at the time. But, I mean, for, I suppose, in the long run, it was probably just as well that was the case. because I, I might, I maybe wouldn't have been in the position.

Now, like, the original idea was to, I've got some land around the house, like, around my house, and the original idea was to build, like, a really small kind of setup there, and maybe have a 100 litre still,

But in my, how we really got started with this place was, uh, I was working as a, delivery driver for a local builder's merchant, like a lumber supply yard, if you like. And, one of the customers I was delivering to, um, was,

Ben: kind of quite a big name in the Whisky industry over here. And we were talking away, and this was at the time when a new Whisky distillery was being built on the island.

And he was like, oh, would you, would you be keen on, you know, a job in the new distillery that's up the road that we're currently building? He was, had a kind of big [00:10:00] hand in, designing it and things like that. And I just

said to him, like, I've got some plans

of my own, I kind of wanted to see out at least, and see if they're going to materialize into anything.

And he was like, well, what is it? And I was a bit kind of, apprehensive about saying anything, you know, this guy's been in the whisky industry for many years and he He started, he kickstarted

the botanist's gin,

Will: Oh, wow. Yeah. I've got a bottle of that downstairs.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben: and I wasn't sure because at the time, you know, I'd had a few people who had told

about it, the very

few people who had told about it had said, look, keep this idea to yourself, because there's been many a case where, you know, Someone's gone public with an idea and somebody who's got the means and the money to start up has

just gone, that's a good idea, I'm just still looking at things. so it's

Will: you, especially being able to say that you, you know, started the first rum distillery on Islay could, yeah, be very attractive.

Ben: kind of my thought. So it's a little apprehensive, but anyway, I spilled, spilled the beans to him

eventually and um, and he goes, look, come down, we'll have a chat and have some

lunch. And he came down [00:11:00] and talked to them and he's like, I've got a few people, because he's, he was one of these guys who was, he was pro, The actual production process, like he is a total romantic for it, and the business is like, you know, secondary to everything else.

He's a hell of a salesman and everything like that. He can talk the talk and walk the walk, but you know, he can tell that he has got Whisky in his veins. He absolutely loves the industry and everything like that. And I think when he sees another person, a young person especially, who's got a keen interest, He wants to nurture that any way he can, so he's more than helpful in that way.

so yeah, anyway, he

put me in contact with, um, Andrew, and Caroline, who I now work with, the Vintage Malt Whisky Company. And, these guys, you know, they might be able to work with you, it's at least worth a meeting. So, we had a, a kind of first meeting, and it went very well, and I pitched the idea, they had already

bought the building over here, you see, and they were looking to go into the production side of the industry.

They already were an independent bottler, [00:12:00] so they bottled, they bottled their own whisky, and they have done that since, 1982, so they've got a lot of, you know, experience in the industry and things like that, and they wanted to make the jump

from bottler to producer,

Will: So they have this plan, they have this plan to start their own scotch Whisky

distillery, and then in comes this young guy who's passionate about rum And, wants to start a rum distillery. How did you possibly convince them like, Oh, the, the, the Scotch thing that I love is famous for that your business is all built around. Don't do that thing. Do rum, which no one's done here. How did, how did that, how did you win them over on that?

Ben: I don't really know, sometimes I feel like that no that's not true, I mean sometimes I feel like that but no I, we had a meeting and I suppose I pitched the idea of doing rum because it was on this slow trend, upward trend, and you know it's been, it's been booming I suppose, from the last, I don't know, five years or something like that, it's been kind of steadily going up. Was slow burner than the overnight success that gin been [00:13:00] beer. And

Will: Yeah.

Ben: I suppose, showed them some numbers that I researched and, I told, told passionate I was,

and convinced, you know, not convincing, but convincing them that it was something, something completely different. You know, there's. About to be 11 Whisky distilleries on Islay and there's more on the way there's another two or three and planning stages and stuff like that and you think, you know, there's a, there's a one island is, you know, not more than 25 miles long and you're going to have 15 Whisky distilleries or something on our 14 Whisky distilleries possibly in the next, you know, next couple of years. And I suppose from my point of view, it's like, how do you discern yourself against the rest of everybody's producing over here? I just. I found it such a strange idea for somebody to go, like, full on into whisky on Islay when there's so much food here already. And I think, [00:14:00] my point of view with that, I'm not sure if, like, that necessarily changed their mind or anything like that.

but, you know, I suppose we, we worked our way together and I explained what I wanted to do. I wanted to make, like, a traditional, I suppose it's traditional, we're making rum in Scotland here, but you know, methods are traditional at least. I didn't want it to be anything, pretend to be anything that wasn't, I wanted it to be like, simple and good quality.

There was no, gimmicks or anything like that when it came to making the spirit. the same kind of ethos as whisky on isle I suppose is, a lot of it is about quality, and you've got such a reputation for quality. So, Yeah,

the, uh, after the first couple of meetings, it took a little while and, you know, probably took a couple of, maybe over a year to even work out that first, down on paper idea, if you like, and then decide what we were going to do with the building.

The building had to be fully renovated. it was built in the late fifties and it never really had any upkeep. So it was a lot of work that went into the actual distillery itself. we decided what equipment we were going to have, how big it was going to [00:15:00] be. and then, you know, what else we were going to do with the land that we had here. Which all takes so much more time than you think, and then there's all the planning applications and building warrants and all that kind of stuff that you have to undergo, and that all takes way longer than you think. So this was all, you know, a couple of years in the making, or even, you know, this part of it, before we even made a drop.

I think we started work on the distillery in 2020, and we didn't finish until January 22. So it was pretty much two years, obviously COVID was, right,

Will: I was about to say, yeah.

Ben: which was a nightmare

Will: a factor.

Ben: That was a nightmare too, you know, building materials and the raw materials for the still and the equipment went through the roof. But we were quite lucky, we got, managed to get all of our kind of like, deposits down and things like that and secured quotes for equipment before everything went crazy. That was fortunate. Uh, yeah, and, over the last, obviously, we've been in production for two years now. And two years before that, we were getting the, the building ready. And [00:16:00] then, five years before that, I suppose, or five or six years before that, was the time where I was just trying to get the ball rolling and meet the right people. So it took around about six years, really, to, for me to get into the stage where we were committed to building a distillery, a rum distillery, and then building work. And then, yeah, here we are, I suppose, ten years later from the initial idea.

Will: So, as you're going through the process of talking with, Andrew and the people at Vintage Malt Whisky Society about doing a distillery, at any point are they like, So can you make good rum? Like, does that, does that come up? Do they want to taste something? But, you know, before they, And like, how do you, how do you manage that, process without, without incriminating yourself, you know,

Ben: We'll let the imagination do the work then. I won't go into too much detail, I suppose, about any of that. But I suppose I had solid theory. Let's just say I had solid theory of the rum production process. Or at least I thought I did. You know, I thought I had solid theory until you actually [00:17:00] come to It was a proper scary moment, actually, because I had complete control over, you know, the degree of, like, what equipment we were going to have. So I, you know, what we've got here at the distillery is we've got, like, kind of a make up tank where we add the molasses and the water, and that's got a big mixer in it that mixes it up. And then we've got five fermentation vessels.which reached 2, 000 liters, and then we've got our 2, 000 liter still, which obviously the pot and twin retort.

Will: Right. And this, this, just to emphasize for listeners, this is not. A typical style of still that one would spot outside of the Caribbean. It's a, a double retort pot still. So, and I'm sure it's probably different as well from the ones in the Caribbean. It's not like it's an exact copy of the stills at Hamden or something like that.

but it's, it's definitely not the type of, like if you go to any of these newer rum distilleries around the world, outside the caribbean, most of the time you won't find a still like this. and so I was really curious to ask, You know, how did You land on that still design? [00:18:00] And, you know, was it something you really had to push for? Because I'm assuming that, it wasn't a cheap investment for that style of still. It looked like it was made, specifically for the distillery. So what was, what was that process like? And why were you set on that specific type of still?

Ben: Yeah, so I mean, I suppose when you first type into Google, when years ago, like, rum still, or Caribbean rum still, rum still, or something like that, what is the first image that pops up? You know,

Will: double retort pot still.

Ben: And I think as soon as I saw that, and I was like, oh man, that is cool. No, well, you know, initially that's what all it was until I started to understand like the actual process around it.

So you, initially you see it and I've kind of fallen, fallen in love with the design of still originally, just by looking at it. And then from, like I say, that kind of, I suppose, mechanical mind on me, knowing, wanting to know how things work and, I'm a sucker for kind of clever engineering, if you like.

And I still maintain [00:19:00] that, you know, there's still that type of still from when it was first introduced. And even before it was introduced for making alcohol, you know, it was a, it was a chemistry apparatus originally. so, when you look at it, or, or an iteration of it was, it wasn't maybe exactly the same as,the, the poster that we know, but, you know, I've got, drawings of

old glass chemical apparatus that was very similar, and you, you go back to a couple hundred years ago, and you think, oh, this is amazing technology for hundreds of years ago.

Will: Right.

Ben: When I started learning about, like, say, the manufacturing process, and obviously drinking the rum from it, from various distilleries around the world, you know, you've got the Mount Gay, and Hampden, and Foursquare, and all these places that use double retort stills, and then, you know, smaller places as well.

And I always knew that I liked that kind of flavor, that kind of style. It's got an oiliness to it, it's heavy, it's I always enjoyed that type of spirit that you can get from these stills. but your thing is as well, what I suppose I learned very quickly is [00:20:00] when we started using it, is just because you've got double retort still doesn't mean you're going to get this heavy, funky liquid.

And that, I think that shocked me a lot to start with. When we first started distilling, I was like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And I kind of knew roughly what we were going to get, but I was, yeah, I was quite surprised like how light the initial runs were from the still. And even Geal is not necessarily really funky or estuary or anything like that. There's definitely a fruitiness there.

Will: Yeah.

Ben: Our second batch is a little bit more flavoursome as well, I think, than our first batch was. But yeah, it took us a little while to kind of dial in what we wanted to get from the still getting our recipe right and things like that.

Will: How much, how much in, in, In the evolution of that recipe, what was more influential, I guess, between changing the fermentation process versus changing aspects of distillation? Was it both, or was one really like the big lever more so than the other one?

Ben: say the fermentation was the bigger, kind of the bigger [00:21:00] lever, if you like, than the other one.

the distillation? Obviously, we did, we actually did change our distillation, our cut points and things like that quite a after, you know, after we were using it for a little while, we, we kind of got the hang of, where to meet your cut points and how early you do things and whatnot. so yeah, they did have a, and, and our, like, you and more, for example, it's got wildly different cut points to get, you know, they're much shorter, much tighter cuts and do more.

Will: I know, I know on the bottle it said um, only 165 bottles, So, pretty small batch, right?

Ben: sadly, yeah, it's a really small batch and that was over a course of like, three distillations. three different distillates and three different fermentations. so is that 6, 000 litres of wash when we produce those 165 bottles of that mark, if you like?

Will: Did you, did you do anything with the, the, the parts of the cuts that were not used in the rum? Did you, like? re distill those or anything?

Ben: course, yeah, I mean, we keep, [00:22:00] um, some of those for, when you get to a certain point, they are very similar, or the kind of cuts we didn't use for doing more are quite similar to our standard kind of, like, uh, stuff we would put into casts. So we kept the three kind of distillations, the leftover cartophyllite from the three distillations, and we put them

Will: I definitely, I want to talk more about the production process. but before that, you know, you're talking about what the initial rum tasted like to you and kind of dialing in the recipe of what you want it to be like and everything. And one of the things that I've thought about ever since, you know, for seeing the name Islay rum is just everything that comes with the word Islay being on. a spirits bottle label, right? And I think it's, it's from my perspective, at least I could see how it could be sort of a double edged sword because on the one hand, people see Islay and even if they're not familiar with rum, I feel like just the [00:23:00] presence of that word lends some respect and, you know, gravitas sort of given the Whisky's reputation, but it also. Islay Whisky's flavor profile, obviously there's diversity between all the distilleries on there, but there are certain characteristics that people expect when they hear Islay Scotch. you know, the most common ones being, you know, smoke and, and that sort of thing. so, Did you feel any pressure sort of for the rum to taste like it comes from Islay in some respect?

And I don't know when I say that I don't even know what it means, right? Because obviously the process you use for your rum like there's you're not peating the rum or anything like that So but is what I'm saying making sense that that did that go through your brain at all,

Ben: you can't, you can't live here and you can't, especially can't call your product, like, no, anything with the word Ayla on it without thinking about along those lines. And you're absolutely right. in more than one ways, I suppose when you look at anything that comes from here, exactly what you [00:24:00] just said, people expect bold and, and peat and smoke and everything like that. And so many people have actually asked me, you know, when you're at shows and things, Oh, is it peated or is there any incorporation of peat into the rum? And we, we, we have a flavored rum, like a spirit drink that incorporates that side of it into it.

And, you know, we are, we have got a new release coming out this year, it's an aged release that is also going to incorporate that into it and, you know, it will be a running theme with some of our, the cask aged rum as well. Because I feel like you can, you can definitely utilize that side of it, for people who are visiting Islay and know Islay for Whisky and smoky Whiskys and primarily come here for Whisky. So you can make that bridge between rum and whisky a lot easier for them to cross if you've got something that's got a little hint of smoke in it as well. you know, our white rum is obviously, it's nothing to do with [00:25:00] smoke or peat or anything like that, it's pure single rum if you

like. we had, we still had a lot of people asking us when we originally,released Geal like, or are you gonna, are you gonna do anything with peat, or are you gonna do a flavored or a spiced rum? And that's really why we went ahead and made the spiced rum initially. Um,

Will: take this. This is, this is not that, but this is that, yeah.

Ben: yeah, kind of, I mean, I mean, I suppose that's the joy of rum. There's so many different avenues that you've got available to you to explore. And. You know, I kind of moved away from spice rum very early on and into, aged rums and white rums and things like that. So I'm not saying we didn't want to make something, like I've never made something that I didn't think was good myself, but it was more for people to, more for people, other people, to enjoy. So folk were asking, you know, a flavoured rum. Well, yeah, okay, we'll do one. And I'll make it to the best of my ability and I'll make it interesting and, you know,

We, like I say, we add the smoke in that way, to keep those people happy. But then, again, you've got so many different customer bases, the people you're drinking spice from aren't going to be drinking [00:26:00] Whisky as well, generally speaking. so, yeah, I think, like, so, uh, when you say, did you have any kind of, feelings about you having to incorporate that? We do, I suppose, in a certain, in a certain fashion. But, you know, like you said, it's a, I think you have Islay on the bottle, it's a double edged sword. Absolutely.

Because you've also got a certain kind of, what's the word for it, I suppose, eh, expectation to maintain a certain level of quality.

Will: Yeah, for sure. It's got to be good.

Ben: yeah, exactly. If you're going to use the Islay name on it, then it has to be, live up to that kind of, eh, notoriety, if you like, even. and I, and I guess when, when you're saying that as well, the other thing I was thinking is when we had installed the pot and double retort, people, some people were automatically assuming that it was going to be, because they, especially folk who knew me, were like, well, it's going to be a funky rum and things like that. for our initial release and we had a couple of different options when we went to release gal and we actually went for the kind of tamer one if you like just because I wanted it to be something that was really approachable for anyone to pick up and drink [00:27:00] and there is still some people you know we get visitors into the distillery and can tell are maybe not necessarily used to drinking straight rum or and they try some of the white rum and they're like oh man that's you're too much for me kind of thing you're like well that's the total version

Will: Exactly. Yeah Yeah, I remember because we we got a sample of Geal from from a friend of the podcast and then like I said, we ordered this from the Whisky exchange knowing that they would be very different rums, but I was excited to compare the differences between them. And my expectation for Geal was almost that it was going to be. not neutral, but just like very straightforward, you know, maybe a little bit on the boring side compared to something like this, but I was really pleasantly surprised in that. I think, I think you nailed it in, in describing it as something that's approachable because I think it's very approachable, but also if you are someone who is into rum and likes funky stuff.

I [00:28:00] don't think it's a boring rum at all. I, I thought that it, it kind of went down the middle of that line between interesting and approachable in a really cool way. And I remember when John and I got to that rum in the tasting, we were tasting through a bunch of, you know, lower proof, white, unaged rums. And that was the one, Where we got to when we were really like, okay, here's something different, you know? So even though it is approachable, it still has something interesting going on. And, so that, I think that's one of the hardest things to do. And I was just really impressed with that. So, um, how did you guys like, at what point did you know, okay, this is, this is the one we're going to bottle. Is there a certain characteristic that you're looking for or is it just a matter of you try it, other people try it and you're all just like, this is really good. What, what kind of, how do you know when you've arrived?

Ben: When,

Will: Yeah.

Ben: I still doubt myself daily on everything I do, and I'm probably my own worst critic when it comes to [00:29:00] any new products. You should ask my wife actually, whenever we release a new product, it must be a nightmare to live with. Because all I keep going on about, I wonder, are people going to like this?

You know, is this the right thing we're doing? Is it the right strength? Is it the right price point? Everything like that. And, you know, it's a, it's a really interesting one. Because. I think I knew what I didn't want it to be, but I took a long time to realize, or not to realize, but to kind of come to the agreement with myself of what I wanted it to be, if you like.

You know, when we first distilled and, when we first started running the distilling, distilling, it was like, well, this is, you know, it's a lot lighter than I thought it might be, and, the flavour wise, and, it was, how do you know, yeah, it was more neutral, it was a lot more, kind of, fresh, if you like, or green, if you like, I don't know if that's the right word for it. you know, we, we tinkered the recipe and we started using in the, for the gal. So we started adding a different amounts of into the wash, into when we're making up [00:30:00] the wash until we arrived at like a, a number of certain amount of liters we put into the wash. Said, well actually that's getting interesting.

So we ran like a few generations of the dun run with the washing. By the time we got to maybe like, I dunno, six or seven distillations in. I feel like I was like, right, I'm much more happy and you tasted what it was like, because we obviously kept samples of the first, you know, I don't know, a lot of the runs, but we kept samples of all the distillations at the very start.

And you try and compare them and you're like, right, there's a much more noticeable difference between what we started with and what we have here.and then when it came to, I think it's difficult in the distillery as well, because you go, you go nose blind, you go taste blind a lot when you're tasting and nosing and you're in here all day.

And

Will: Yeah.

Ben: I think I remember taking it home over a weekend and it was like a Sunday evening and I hadn't been in the distillery for, you know, a day or almost a couple of days at that point. And I tried it at [00:31:00] home then I was like, that seems right. You know, that's what I'm looking for. but then as soon as we went to bottle it and we sent it away to the bottlers, I was like, no, I don't know.

It's

Will: Yeah, this is shit. I've made a mistake. Yeah, yeah.

Ben: terrifying. So, uh, one thing that was quite cool actually is when, funnily enough, When I, we bottled our first release of Geal, and I went out to the bottle, we, we don't bottle on site at the distillery in Islay, we bottle in Glasgow, so I, I went out to Glasgow for the bottling of our first ever run and everything like that, and then, I walked into the bottling hall, and immediately knew it was our rum, because I could smell it.

Will: ah, yeah, that's cool.

Ben: such a cool moment and it was, funnily enough, it was on my, it was on the day of my 30th birthday that, uh, we

Will: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Ben: I walked in there and I just fell on top of the world, I could, and I initially, like immediately, sorry, I smelled our rum and I was like, so distinguishable, I could tell that a mile away. [00:32:00] And I was like, yeah, I think, then I did put my mind at ease a little bit then, I was like, I think we've done the right thing here when we, when we got a bottle and everything like that. And then obviously, the proof is in the pudding, I suppose, when we went to actually. release it and sell it. And we made it for the, I don't know if you've heard of the, the kind of festival here, the Whisky festival on Islay. It happens every year.

Will: Oh no, I wasn't familiar with that. Okay. So yearly Whisky festival

Ben: a year of Whisky, or I mean, it's a festival of Islay really, but the Whisky is the main aspect of it. so we have a, we had an open day for that. first Whisky festival. a few years ago now. And, we released our rum on that kind of festival, if you like. So we had a lot of, obviously a lot of Whisky drinkers, but a lot of locals came in as well, and a bit of overwhelming support, which is great. And, you know, the rum went down really well and we made hundreds and hundreds of cocktails with it.so it was after that initial release that I was, you know, dead happy then. and then I think, we're on to, I don't know what batch we'll [00:33:00] be on now we've got in bottle, but even into our second batch of the Geal, And I think the flavors only increased and got better as the kind of, um, the second batch was released and the third batch as well. And I think that was from the kind of still getting worn and then having its natural patina and things like that created, I think, yeah, it made a difference of, after a few months of running the still, it's kind of bedded in, if You like.

Will: So it's, it's less a matter of, like, it's not like you've made big changes between batch one and two. It's just more, you're more, practice and also the equipment has been more, you know, worn in a little bit. yeah,

Ben: yeah, precisely. So, yeah, I mean, I think it'll grow and it'll get better as we go as well. And we've learned so much in the last couple of years. It's sometimes I need to remind myself it's, you know, it's only been two years. It's not a long time to, to make a start. but yeah, it's, it's, it gets better all the time, I think. For, for Geal, it was a case of, you didn't know, I wasn't sure what I was looking for, but I knew it when I [00:34:00] found it, when I got there, when I saw the piece, and I was like, right, I think that's, that's ready now.

Will: And, and for, for the listeners out there who, you know, love the super nerdy in depth details of production, how, for, for y'all, how long are you fermenting, you know, what kind of yeast, where, where's your molasses coming from, give, give us like, all the, the fine points on that.

Ben: Yeah, of course, yeah. So, um, most of the molasses we buy in comes from, predominantly, it's been India. Yeah. we've had some batches that come in from, like uh, South America and southern states of America. we've had some come in from, Africa, but, predominantly it's been India. and, the natural question that comes after that usually is, do you notice a difference between the molasses?

That's generally what people ask. And to be honest, I think, you know, there, there has been, it's a natural product at the end of the day. you know, the actual makeup of the molasses changes batch on batch, so it's never exactly the same. And I think unless you were getting it from like one place [00:35:00] all the time, the same refinery or the same plantation, then I think it'd be very difficult to spot the difference.

In my opinion, at least, maybe that's a controversial point, but a lot of the molasses suppliers as well, you know, you've got a combination of, who knows, like multiple different refineries from all over one country, perhaps. And then they'll be centralized at one depot and they can be mixed there. So you can never, you may get an origin country, but you can't get an exact location from where you're taking it from down to, or they'll probably be able to trace where it came back from, but it will never be from one specific place, it'll be from multiple.

And then you've got, you know, storage tanks that are more local to us that'll hold, say, 100, 000 litres at a time or something like that, and, you know, they don't wash out the tanks between bases of molasses, it's all the same thing to them, they're shifting it so quickly, so you get a mix there as well.

Will: It's like a molasses Solera.

Hmm.

Ben: exactly. I'm not sure what The, original question was right now, but

Will: The, [00:36:00] no, no, that's, that's really good. Cause I think it's, you know, one of the first things people think about when they hear UK and rum is just, you know, where, where are they getting the molasses from And obviously there's a long, history in rum of places far away from the Caribbean, bringing molasses there and distilling it, you know, we, that was happening in the United States hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But But, so you have the molasses for, for giol. Is it about a week long fermentation? Is that, is that, am I remembering correctly?

Ben: that's, right. Yeah. So we were talking about the finer points of the production process. That's right.

Will: Yeah, no, we got back, it's fine.

Ben: Absolutely. Yeah. So generally speaking, it's around about a week, So about a week to seven days. So we have, um, five fermentation tanks, that we run on rotation through Monday through Friday.so it's actually, it's maybe just shy of, a week long. So if we distill number one fermenter on Monday, and we'll come in at, say, get the still running at half seven o'clock in the morning or something like that, and [00:37:00] then we'll refill that fermenter we've just emptied.

And picture yeast by midday. So you're a few hours off of the full kind of seven days, if you like, but it's right about there. So that's a, it works for our, we could definitely shorten the fermentation. You know, we could start them, start the fermentation, it's warmer. We could probably cut it down to the three or four days, possibly. But I don't really, I don't really want to go down that route. And if we want to have production, I think what we're going to do is just, we'll just double the amount of fermentation vessels we have. So rather than tighten down, we'll just increase our, our fermentation space.we've got, you've got quite a lot going on even after the alcoholic fermentation finishes.

You've got, the kind of dead, dead wash sitting there on this yeast bed and you've got autolysis and all that kind of thing. So there's more going on in developing flavor than just the alcoholic fermentation or that, or those few days where it's, it's probably kind of going, if you like. you know, we use right about 700 [00:38:00] kilograms of molasses per 2, 000 litre batch of, watch that we make. we use a variety of different yeasts, or we've, we've used a variety of different yeasts. We started with, a yeast from Lallemand, which is their, we tried two from them, actually, their typical rum yeast, if you like.

And then we went to AB Murray and tried them, they're more known for supplying, well they supply yeast for everyone, but they supply all the yeast, a lot of the yeast for the whisky here. So we tried their rum yeasts, we also tried their whisky yeast as well. And that's something I kind of want to go and experiment a little bit more with, is trying some of their whisky yeast, just to see how it kind of plays out.

But, when you're trying trialing yeast, you kind of feel like you need to do a good couple of weeks. Especially when you're using high and low wines from the previous distillation. It takes a little while to get through, you know, to cleanse them of everything they've picked up from the last type of fermentation, if you like. and we're currently, sorry, we've tried some of their yeast, sorry, we're [00:39:00] currently on, a company called,WHC Lab, so they supply yeast for a few different people around Scotland now. they're relatively small, I think they're based in Ireland. there's a couple of companies anyway, but there are some really interesting things.

I think there's a, most of the supply companies for yeast have been really getting on board with like the craft brewing and craft distillation scene, and they're seeing, I think they're seeing the kind of pound signs, if you like, on all the marketing on their side of things that can come and all the sales that can be generated from this boom and the interest in what people are using. So I'm a

Will: Right. Okay.

Ben: of some of that sometimes. Like, I am 100 percent in agreement that it can make so much difference. But I'm also a little bit wary that you could put a fancy name on something. Like yeast wine in a brewery or distillery, and be like, Oh, that sounds great, I'm going to try that.

Will: Yeah.

Ben: So, I just call me a sceptic, I suppose, but,

Will: No, but I mean, it's not like you're not, as you said, it's not like you're not experimenting and trying interesting [00:40:00] stuff. Um, which, which probably means we should talk about, Uine Mhor a little bit. So whereas Geal is about a week fermentation, and you said you're using some dunder in the process now as well.

this one on the other hand, four to six weeks fermentation time. you're using, I think it was described as matured dunder native bacteria and two commercial. Distiller's yeast strains. So this is like the geeky bottle, right? The one that's like the, you know, it's, it's also 55 percent ABV, whereas y'all is 45%. So, part of, kind of an experimental series, I think, or I don't know if the word experimental is used or not. if you use the word experimental on, around Richard Seale, for example, he does not like that word. So I try to choose my words carefully, but, how, like, what was the, the making of this rum like?

And I imagine once you get into going that far into fermentation, bringing, you know, Native bacteria into the picture, you know, things can kind of like go [00:41:00] in all different directions. So what was that process like?

Ben: yeah, I mean, as soon as we started, as soon as we kind of nailed Gal and we knew what we were doing with that on the production side, then I started playing around with like longer fermentations and stuff like that so we took a couple of different kind of commercial yeasts and we were just like, we'll use One for, we used one type for, one of the fermentations and we used one type for the other two.

but then we had, again, as soon as we started production as well, we started putting aside some of the, the dunder from the still. And just leaving it to, leaving it to the open air. And we kind of feed it, we put a little molasses in there and then we just kind of let it mature and do its own thing. and then.

Will: Do you, is that just like out, is that inside the distillery? Like where, where do you store something

Ben: We've got various different IBCs, um, dotted around the place. So, one thing, like I did notice in the last couple of years [00:42:00] is that you get so much more action in the summer than you do in the winter. Which is kind of obvious, obviously. You know, in the winter here, the temperature drops right down. It's consistently below probably 8 degrees for months at a time.

so, you don't get the same kind of, like activity with wild yeast and bacteria and stuff like that. You do get, there's still things that happen, but it's just not the same as in the summer. You've got, you know, all the flowers are open, you've got plenty of pollinators flying around and they spread yeast a lot and things like that with wild yeast and whatnot and different bacterias.

So you've got so much more going on and the heat really kind of amps up the, the kind of reproduction cycle and everything for all these bacteria and yeast and things.

So for. Um, Uine Mhor, we, we had already tried like like longer fermentations of like a couple of weeks. And then you start to see the, the pellicle forming on, on your wash.

And that was just from normal yeast that had done the alcoholic fermentation. And then you add, you, you [00:43:00] Like ferment, fermenters just left the tops open. And then you can see some of the, like say these form and you know, something's happening and you can get a change of smell in the wash. And then they start to bubble and you get almost like a secondary fermentation a lot time.

whether that's alcoholic fermentation or kind of bacterial fermentation is different story. So we, we tried a few of these in different lengths of time and different times of year, and we found that, you know, summer was the best time to do it. And then we started meshing around with the dunder, adding some other things into the dunder,

like fruit skins and what not. And we left that for a little while. Then after a, I don't know, a couple of months of that mature dunder, if you like, sitting, we then kind of add some of that into the bosh and leave it for another couple of weeks. And that's really where the Uine Mhor was born. It was three fermentations, between five and six weeks [00:44:00] long.

Like all of them, one of them was five, the other two were six or something like that. And then we had a couple, two of them that were, The nose off of it, there's a lot of acetone there, you know, with the model airplanes and nail polish remover. For me, I've always had that association with the little foiled sweets you used to get called pear drops. And that's all I

Will: Oh, I've never had one. I've never had one of

Ben: I don't know, maybe it's a British thing, I'm not sure, but a little pear, pear drops you used to get. And I had them as a kid and I always remember them, I was like, that's exactly what that reminds me of. And

Will: Nice.

Ben: it says, uh, FPD on the bottle.

Will: I was going to ask, yeah, what FPD stands for? Because I kept looking, you know, I saw a long fermentation FPD and I was like looking for words that. started with F, P, And D, and I couldn't find them. So what is, what is F, P,

Ben: FPD is Funky Pear Drop.

Will: Ah! Funky pear drop. That's, okay. I have to, I have to like Google what these pear drop candies are,

Ben: Yeah, we never actually put it anywhere in a bottle, but that's, as soon as [00:45:00] we, like, I was smelling the wash and the spirit as well after that, I was like, that's some funky pear drops right there. I don't know if you can find, I'm sure that's what they were called, and I'm not just making it up, I have to check now. that's

Will: uh, I'm sharing my, my screen. Can you see these? Do these look familiar?

Okay. Okay. So if you, for those listening, if you Google pear drop candies, you'll see exactly what, what Ben is talking about. Okay. I have to, I have to get my hand. Maybe I can order. I bet I can order some on Amazon. I'm going to try that and I'm going to do a little, a little tasting with the, the FPD and see how it goes.

Ben: So yeah, I mean, that's it. Like I say, we tried these three fermentations, different use, And the, native bacteria side of things were things that were naturally introduced when we had these open top fermentations going. So it wasn't necessarily bacteria that we had, like, harvested and then added into it.

It was more just what was naturally available, around the distillery. And I've always, I've always been quite fascinated with that kind of side of things as well, [00:46:00] because we had some fermentations and distillations that turned out nothing like that as well. They were quite different. And they were

still, like, and, you know, you say, you say funky, but it's not the same, I think you mentioned that in the podcast where you tried it, it's not like Jamaican funk or Not necessarily, you know, there's maybe some, a couple of things that are similar, but it's not really like anything, else that I've tried necessarily.

There's similarities with a couple of things, and I think, you know, what, what we can get is we're not going to be the same, and even if you try to be the same with a lot, as a lot of these other distilleries, I don't think you could really ever replicate what they're doing, because you're in different parts of the world, there's different climates, there's different, micro, flora around.

There's, there's everything that's, that's different, you know, use different water and everything like that as well. Um, so I was really happy when we, we had these, um, smells promising and, you know, you taste it and it's like a sour bitterness in the wash and things like that. And [00:47:00] then when it came to the still initially, I was like, ah, nice one.

We've, you know, we've kind of struck gold with this a little bit. so. We made our cuts for, for that batch that were, like I said earlier on, they were a lot tighter than what they had been for a lot of the other distillations we've done. And the next couple of fermentations, it turned out really well too. And we've kind of been working with that. Combined, we had a few, we had the three different distillations, but I was actually, they weren't just like a straight blend between the three of them. They were different ratios, so I tried it in different ratios to see what would work. and that's what you, in the bottle there, is what he kind of settled on.

but yeah, it was an interesting one, with, the Uine Mhor, because at that point it was so, it was so, kind of hit or miss with what we were going to get. You know, you could, you could try and promote certain things in your fermentations, but we're not, they're not temperature controlled. And, you know, you've only got so much control of what's gonna, what's, how it's gonna

go. So yeah, it was interesting what we ended up with, and I was happy [00:48:00] with that bottling. We've got some more spirit that I distilled, late last year. That is a potential for a base for the second release of Uine Mhor So it'll probably be still called Uine Mhor, but it'll be like batch.

Will: Okay. So the same name, but different batch. variations. Yeah, Okay.

Ben: it probably will be, you know, quite a bit different than the first one. one thing we have, I've been doing more recently there, actually it's, I've got a new microscope.

Will: Oh, nice.

Ben: Yeah. so I've been, we've been looking into, different yeasts, like wild yeast and

things like that. And I think that's the next kind of, evolution of what more will be. It's, it's going to be a more refined version, if you like.

Will: so how does, how does the microscope come into play? Are you, you know, studying the yeast to, to see what you're getting out of the natural environment?

Ben: exactly. So, I mean, we, we, we took, pictures of some of our wash that we had a two week long fermentation with some wash like a [00:49:00] There was a stuck fermentation and anyway, it was, we had to skip it, it's distillation for one week. So we pushed it on another week to the second week till it finished a little bit lower in the crafty.

And, uh, we put that under the microscope. So I wonder what it's like now, after a couple of weeks. You know, one week you've got the, the yeast strain we use, um, Saccharomyces cerevisiae. It's like a killer strain, so it will go and kill off anything else that's in the wash. That's the idea, anyway. So any kind of a wild e string like that is quite good at getting rid of them early on. But, uh, after this one was stuck and after another week fermenting, and it's still, still finished quite, uh, like, uh, so we use, I don't know how much your technical knowledge extends to like, gravities and things like that, but the gravity of the wash repair,

Will: Not that

Ben: okay, that's fair enough, uh, so your gravity, your wash, the higher the gravity, the more sugar is still available for the yeast to eat, and that's how you measure how much sugar and how much potential alcohol you can get out, get from your, your wash. So the [00:50:00] gravity was still quite meant there was still quite a lot of, residual sugars in the wash. but it wasn't, you know, it was dead, it wasn't fermenting anymore, and I was like, I wonder what it's like. so, I've taken a little sample of the wash and put it underneath the microscope, and, this one goes up to, a thousand magnification.

So, at that magnification, you can see individual yeast cells quite easily. you can see the, pot marks on the Saccharomyces cerevisiae, where you can see the, where they've been budding. but what was interesting, we also had some kind of, um, rod shaped yeast, which is there are, like, a lot of people, I'm not sure, there's, there's fission yeast, so, but there's different types of fission yeast as well.

But that's, everyone for a while was going on about, um, uh, S POMP, which was, uh, schizosaccharomyces pombe. And,

Will: right. Right. We're getting into a Boston apothecary

Ben: you know, they had spoken about it a lot, Richard Seale had talked about it quite a bit, and there'd be a few other people, had spoken. [00:51:00] So it was interesting to see that there was even some of these fission yeast in, within, after those two weeks. And the fission yeast take a longer time, they, sometimes it'll look like the fermentation's stuck and then after a much longer time they'll start to chew their way through their available, their main available sugars.

And so, there's also the presence of quite a lot of bacteria and things like that as well. So it was interesting to see that underneath the microscope for the first time. Because we didn't, you know, we only recently got it.

Will: Yeah.

Ben: You can start to identify it, and I'm very still much an amateur when it comes to using the microscope and identifying what I'm looking at.

But it means I can start learning about what to look out for and what, and identifying what's in our wash and the composition of it. You can, never truly identify, like, what strain of yeast that you're looking at necessarily, or what bacteria you're looking at. Or maybe some people can, but I don't think it's really possible. You need to get it analyzed further and sent away and things. but it'll give us a, you know, a ballpark, if you like,

Will: Right. [00:52:00] Right. You can, you can start to, you can start to recognize things once you've gone through, you know, multiple batches, go like, Oh, we've got some of this again, that kind of thing.

Ben: so you can see reoccurring, what's going on, but the idea with the microscope is that we will be able toisolate colonies of yeast and then You can put it underneath and you can identify, is it a yeast you've got, or is it something else? So when you're swabbing for wild yeast, for example, you know you can go and take flowers or, or heather or grass or anything you like.

And you can swab for it and then you can set it on an agar plate and isolate the colonies. You see different colors and whatnot, growing on your agar plate and then you isolate that and you take that and grow it. And such like, and then eventually you can scale up and you can do like a viability test underneath your microscope and a yeast count.

And, you can test the viability, I think sort of above like, 60 percent or something like that, then you can successful fermentation. So that's what the microscope is for, is for moving on to the next [00:53:00] kind of evolution, I suppose, of refining my own knowledge and, and knowing what I'm looking at. You know, possibly isolating, a yeast from Islay that we can use in future batches of rum.

Will: and it's interesting cause you know, the word terroir came up when we were talking about molasses. And to me, this is where terroir can really. You know, be a big part of the conversation, with with molasses rums, not to completely rule out the idea of terroir being associated with molasses. I think there are some cases where, where that can be true and provide differences. But, when you talk about, the, the native. You know, native. yeast, native bacteria, the environments, all the micro micro flora and everything like you were talking about that, you know, that's why

it's basically impossible to make a rum that tastes exactly like a Jamaican rum all the way in Scotland, for example, even if you have the same equipment. You know, the same molasses, whatever, it's going to come out differently because of the environment that you're [00:54:00] in. and that's, what's really cool. So, because, you know, when I, when I see, you know, long fermentation, funky and stuff like that, I get interested, but I, I'm also when it, when it comes from a new type of rum location, you know, new quote unquote different place.

I'm always hoping like, it's cool to be inspired by other rum styles, but I also want to see a unique, like your, your own style emerge. and so that's what I appreciated the most about this rum was that it had some funky elements, like there was some of that fruitiness, but it wasn't at all like a Jamaican funk or, you know, a Haiti funk or anything like that to me, it's, it's,it's, it's Islay funk, I guess we have to call it now. So, yeah, I wanted to ask, by the way, the label. Has a lot of different things on it. there are, there are some, birds. I'm guessing this is a native bird. I'm not sure what, what it's called. There's an airplane, an anchor, an anvil, a cross, a boat, a little barrel of rum. there's [00:55:00] just, there's a lot, it's an intricate label.

Are there any, you know, we already found the, the secret fPD meaning. are there any hidden meanings in the, the label here? Any Easter eggs?

Ben: Yeah, I mean, if you're familiar with Islay, then I suppose it's one big Easter egg. But everything on the label represents, like a, an aspect of Islay.

And we wanted it to be very personal to, to, the island and, you know, to to us and everything as well. So, um, so right in the very front, there's our still obviously. And then we've got, we've got the lighthouse, that square building right next to it, is,

Will: Okay. So that's this right,

Ben: that's right, yeah, so that's one of the few square lighthouses, around the UK. it's right across the bay from us really, so, that's a kind of significant part of Port Ellen where we're based. and then there's, we've got pantries there. We have actually got our own little cord lined pantries in, on the distillery grounds, so they're not quite that big.

Will: No way that I was actually I was going to ask you I was going to say I see palm trees on here. Where can I [00:56:00] find palm trees in Islay? so, you're telling me there actually are palm trees

Ben: I don't know if you can see out the window there, but there's our,

Will: Yeah,

Ben: we've got

Will: it's a little that's a it's a palm tree and training right

Ben: we've got a couple other ones that are a little bit bigger, but yeah, they do grow quite well over here, surprisingly enough.

Will: Wow,

Ben: So we've got those. And then, uh, so what else? We've got, um, the Sunderland seaplane. it's got a historical, kind of, thing for Ireland, which is the, the plane that you see there. That actually, that was one of the experimental seaplanes in the latter stages of World War II, and one of them crashed landing.

And it was local, local guys who went to recover the plane, and the people from the plane in the lock and all, which is our lock, right in our sea lock, right in the middle of the island.

So that's a kind of a historical significance, if you like, to the island. And then you've got, the Kildalton Cross. So, the Kildalton Cross there is, again, that's like a, forgive me if I'm making this up, it's, I think it's around about 1, 300 years old.

Will: Wow.

Ben: It's still [00:57:00] erected, about 10 miles from where we are now.

Will: Oh, okay.

Ben: probably about 5 miles or something like that. So it still

stands now next to an old church. and again, so it's a massive historical importance to the island. It's one of the oldest, like, carved,

crosses like that, Celtic crosses if you

Will: So, so this is really, this is, this label is just, it's not just Islay in name. It's, it's Islay all over through and through.

Ben: Geese, they're kind of an iconic fellow. They come back every year. they come down from.

Will: Okay.

Ben: and then the, anvil is, uh, I'm a, uh, amateur blacksmith, so I do a bit of blacksmithing

Will: no way. What, uh, what, what are some things that you've blacksmithed?

Ben: that's the coat hook behind me.

Will: Oh, nice. Okay. Very

cool. It looks like a very sturdy, very well crafted coat

hook

Ben: There you go.

Will: There we go. That's nice.

Ben: Yeah, so, uh, and, you know,

I, I can, to be honest, a lot of what I make is,

I just kind of play around. I make, I've made bottle

openers for everybody. So, I think Maggie, I think I gave [00:58:00] Maggie

one of my bottle openers when she visited.

Will: Oh, that's a, that's an A plus souvenir to come back with for

Ben: yeah, I've given it to, there's been a couple of

my pals and mates in the industry and things like that. I've given bottle openers Ivar's got a bottle opener. I made him a little guitar one because he plays guitar. So anyway, yeah, so I kind of just play around a lot of times, to be honest. yeah, me too. I make my wife candle holders and stuff like that.

Will: it's a good, good way to take out your, uh, your frustration on things probably, you know, when you, when you've got a new release coming up and you're, you're worried about it, you can just go pound it out on the, the

anvil, um, on the note of, of aging, because all the releases so far have been unaged.

If I'm remembering correctly, you've mentioned you've got some stuff aging. What, what is, what does the aging program look like? What, what kind of, when can people expect an aged release? the, the, the hard question to answer probably, but what, what does it look like, like in, in terms of casks that you're using and things like that.

Ben: pretty varied to be honest. We, we [00:59:00] started aging probably quite late. you know, we didn't start putting, spirit in the cast for a good few months after we started production. we focused so much on, on getting the stuff up and running and on the production side of things that in any of our heads to begin with, So it took us a good few months to actually fill anything into casks.

Even the first casks we filled, you know, you'd expect it to be ex bourbon, virgin oak, or whatever. And, uh, the first seven casks we filled were, like, ex sherry and Sauternes wine casks. So it was just and then we went on to do, uh, we've got port pipes, we've got, various different sherry casks and butts. We've got some ex-bourbon, we've got, virgin Oak, there's Madeira,

Will: Yeah. A little bit of everything

Ben: yeah, some red wine casks, some, borough red wine castings, we've got a bit of everything, we've got some all sorts, and we've got, of course, we've got some Islay Whisky casks as well, which will, will be, a kind of theme, I [01:00:00] suppose, will be one of our, you know, I mean, expressions, I guess, will be from ex whisky casks

Will: well, you mean, you know, they're, they're your neighbors, so you have kind of a natural connection and it, it, it plays right into the Islay expectations that people have. So, yeah, it seems like a very natural thing to do

Ben: yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm not saying, like, all of our, all of the rum we release will be from, like a peated WhiskyCat. want to do that, to be honest, yeah, like, it's nice having the options there, and, you know, it's good to have so many options, but, we'll well have other, other things as well.

But yeah, we've been aging in so many different things. We've been, most of the production that we've been, we've been making has been going into cast. So, I'm not sure of the exact figure of what we've got in cast now, but it can't be far off getting to a couple hundred casks or something like that, I think.

Will: I'm guessing in any, no temperature control on, on the aging environment or or is

Ben: no, it's just natural, like, like, everywhere, most places [01:01:00] in Scotland, I don't think there's many that have got, like, humidity and temperature control

There is some, but um, but no, I mean, it's, a lot of our casks, a lot of our stock is sitting amongst Whisky right now, so we are in the process of making our own, of building our own warehouse.

so, we're renting space for our cast for the time being. But, yeah, we're making a small warehouse at distillery right now, um, it's, it's kind of at the starting phases of,

it's,

Will: Nice.

Ben: So yeah, it'll be, it'll be really good to get that up and running. It means we've got a bit more space, the idea is eventually, you know, it'll free up some space in the distillery itself, so we can add some more fermentation space as well. yeah, so that's good. It means, you know, we can, we can try, because right now, you know, if we've got fermenter taking up, one of these longer fermentations, they can go on for weeks at a time, and that's one fermenter down for normal production. So hopefully when we. you know, when we get this up and running, we'll have more time to do experimental, sorry Richard,

longer fermentations and stuff like that.yeah, so [01:02:00] it'll be good, it'll be interesting. Next, this next year is going to be, or I say next year, I've become everly increasingly more,

patient. So, uh, a year isn't a very long time. so yeah, I think the, the Warehouse will be finished hopefully by, between October and December this year. and then, so start of next year, we can, we can really start to experiment with some more, more stuff.

Will: you think, and it's, it's fine if you can't answer this yet, but are you thinking toward doing single cask releases, blending casks for your first release or are you keeping all options open?

Ben: think, we will do like a little bit of everything. so we've got an Ace released coming up this year. And it's, it's, you know, it's still quite young.

We've only been in production for a couple of years, which means it's obviously going to be quite young. but I think. This one is, it's not, it's a non age statement run, so it's, it's more than, I think, yeah, it is, it's more than, around about 18 months, [01:03:00] but it's more than, it's more than 14 months, but no more than 18 or 19 months or something like that, but we're not putting an age statement on it or anything like that, so it is quite young, but it's still, it's interesting, it's quite punchy, it's got a bit of flavour about it, I've been kind of sampling some of the spirit recently, and I think And that's a combination of a few different casks. So, it'll be kind of part of our core range, if you like. But then there's, you know, there's nothing to stop us in the future from doing a single cask or, and we probably will do that, you know, most of the distilleries around Ireland, they release like a, one of these festival bottles, or they'll release a couple of festival bottles.

And, it'll be like a single cask or a collection of maybe a couple of casks. and they'll release it for their kind of festival bottle, So we might follow suit and do something like that in the future. but I think it would need to be quite, something quite special for in order for me to be happy to, to release it as a single cast out of that. And I would say as well, we'd probably wait till our run is a good [01:04:00] bit older before we do it like that as well. Cause, and I don't know if there's much point in releasing like a 18 month or a 2 year old single cask unless it was maybe like a little locktape or something like that.

I'm not sure. I don't know.

Will: yeah, I mean it really depends. I think sometimes you find something that is special enough at that age But if you can afford to wait, then you know It usually doesn't hurt waiting past that to see you see where the rum goes sort of Unless like you said you're aging something like Super small.

Ben: Or, or I suppose the other aspect is if we were, if we had done one of our, longer fermentation, and we put that into a cast. And we, we, we like, like, lightly aged that to see how it developed over the course of like a year or something. That could be quite interesting. But that's, you know, no plans or anything like that for right now at least.

Will: Yeah, I've had some interesting younger rums that were kind of longer fermentation, funkier type rums that were aged in something like very [01:05:00] expressive, like, virgin oak or something like that for a short amount of time, where it really picks up a lot of oak fast and the rum is really punchy. So, you know, it's big flavors meeting each other.

Some of those I've found to be quite tasty, you know, under three years or so. But, yeah, the, the great thing is it sounds like you have a ton of options, so it'll be, yeah, really exciting to kind of see all that come together. One, one more thing I wanted to get to just before we kind of wrap things up. we, we've neglected to mention the building that you're in, which is known as the old lemonade factory. And,i, I kept trying to Google information about. The lemonade brand that was there previously, which I believe is called Hattiers, is that the name of it?

Ben: so the lemonade or the soft drinks that was made here is called, it

was known as hasties.

Will: Hasties, okay, that's right, that's it, Hasties. I couldn't, I don't know if I was Googling the wrong thing, but I couldn't find anything about this old brand. But what I did find out, and this was just my own ignorance for having never been to the [01:06:00] UK, Lemonade is very different in the UK from what we know as lemonade in the States, which is just a combination of lemon juice, a shitload of sugar, and water, combined together. It's more of like a, like a sparkling soda over there. Is that

Ben: Yeah, that's right. so.

Will: Okay.

Ben: I mean, there's, there's not a great deal of information. I, I looked into it and asked a lot of the locals and things like that because a lot of the kind of older generation had worked in the, the lemonade factory when they were younger. So, Milton was first erected in 1957 and they made soft drinks here, so limeade, lemonade, like cola, a variety of different things, until sometime in the 70s and then sometime point in the 70s, It was always in glass bottles as well, and the whole thing was done here. I think they would just buy in syrups, to be honest with you, and then they would carbonate

Will: Okay.

Ben: on site, and that's what they sold here. So we [01:07:00] had, um, it was two brothers, Donald and Harold Pasty, who started it. And then, like I say, in the 70s, when importation in the island became cheaper and more readily available, the, The sales

dropped off on the island, and they were importing a lot more into the island at that point, so it then just became a distribution point. For the local restaurants and bars and hotels and things like that. And even then, in kind of the early 2000s, it changed hands a couple of times and just went downhill from there. So, but yeah, that was the original kind of, like, story. It was, it was two, it was actually two guys, as I mentioned, Donald and arnold, and they were actually the uncle, and, or, the grand, grandfather and great uncle, I suppose, of,

Will: Okay.

Ben: of the original, of the guy who

did the building work here.

Will: Oh, right, yeah, that's

Ben: yeah, it's a good bit of continuity there as well, which is nice. So it's Scott Hastie who has done all the building work for us.

Will: It looks like a really cool building too. I think you guys kind of redid the outside. It's like white and [01:08:00] blue together. it's a very striking kind of building. So it looks really cool It looks like a great place, to, you know, attract, visitors and things like that, which you, you guys don't have like a formalized tour experience quite yet.

Is that

Ben: That's right, yeah. So, because we're, we're, just so small. And, you know, me, myself and,

my colleague Johnny who works here at Auxiliary all the time. so. When people come, we don't have time necessarily to say we're gonna like, set up a tour system. We're gonna have a set time every day. Generally speaking, people will either just drop in and we'll just deal with it as it comes, or we'll, uh, we'll phone up and then we'll maybe arrange a time that day, depending on what, how busy we are. We'll plan round schedules and stuff like that. Uh, but hopefully at some point in the future, lets say the, the warehouse that we're erecting them out is hopefully gonna have space for small shop. so. Fingers crossed, at some point in the future, we'll hopefully have a small shop there and we can organize, like, a tour system a little bit [01:09:00] better. And hopefully, em, employ, have someone employ to kind of do a tour for us, if you like. But, right now it's very informal, you know, we need to show people around as they can arrive. It's quite, it's very personal, I think a lot of people like it,

Will: Yeah. I mean, what's better, what's better than you get to meet everyone who's working on the run pretty much. So, you know,

Ben: yeah, no, it's been good, um, and it, you know, it goes down well with the bulk of this, so, yeah, hopefully at some point we'll, we'll get that. But anyway, it's a cracking building, you know, it took a, it would have been easier just to knock it down and start again, but, yeah, we, uh, we did, like I said, we did a full kind of renovation, so all the, all the walls were completely knocked back and re plastered, new roof, new timbers, new windows, new doors.

all the concrete work inside was, was redone to allow for the weight of the equipment. and then all the outside was completely landscaped and, you know, new walls around the outside perimeter and

Will: palm trees.

Ben: of course. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So it was, it was a lot of work, but it looks really good now and it's, it's kind of restored a building that was in such dire [01:10:00] straits back to its former glory. So it,

And that was very important as well, like, I'm a local here and I knew the building was iconic and local and important to a lot of the local people here. So we didn't want to take that away.

Will: Yeah.

Ben: so yeah, that was the kind of idea behind the building at least. A

Will: And plus now you can put a distilled at the old lemonade factory on all the bottles, which sounds pretty cool and interesting. Right. So another bonus.

Ben: conversation piece and a little bit of a nod to our history, I suppose. Which, you know, is a trend I suppose that follows right the way throughout everything that we've done. is a lot of it is focused on the historical aspects of. Of rum and of the island and things like that, you know, it's, eh, would say it's traditional, but it, you know, it's, it's about as traditional as making rum on an island, so.

Will: Yeah. Awesome. Well, um, before we go, we, we have a tradition of, of how we end the show, which is normally masterminded by my co host,

John, um, which, as I said, he is currently traveling in Italy and was unable to, [01:11:00] to join us, unfortunately, he, he's, he's sad he couldn't be here, but I've promised to carry on this segment in his stead. Stead, which is our rapid fire segment.

so what we do, if you're not familiar, we put about 60 seconds, a generous 60 seconds on the clock. And I run through a bunch of short questions that, you answer as quickly as possible. we present this as an optional segment. So before I just rush into it, I'll ask if you're, if you're up

Ben: Oh, absolutely.

Will: okay. All right. Got 60 seconds. I have to pull my questions up here again. I'm, I'm not used to this. Normally John is, is steering the wheel here, so hopefully this doesn't go off the rails. So, all right, I've got 60 seconds and I will go,

okay. Neat or on the rocks column pot or blend. Obvious answer, right?

aged or unaged.

Ben: Oh, that's hard. Recently it's been more unaged.

Will: All right, that makes sense. molasses or cane juice.

Ben: Ah, that's too difficult as well. Um, probably molasses. Oh, I do love cane juice rums.

Will: Yeah, you know, [01:12:00] you can say both if you want. Um, if you could make a batch of rum at any distillery in the Caribbean, which one would it be?

be Hampden. I knew that would be the answer. Okay. what's one other UK rum producer that more people need to

check out? All right. Yeah, I enjoyed the J. Gows that we had, on our episode. Um, The Scottish accent, I think, is among the most imitated accents you'll hear. What do you think is the ideal punishment for a bad attempt at a Scottish accent?

Ben: You need to eat A kilo of haggis.

Will: A kilo of haggis. Okay. Um, yeah, that's a good one. other than visiting rum and Whisky distilleries, the best thing to do when visiting Islay is what?

Ben: Soak up the Beaches. definitely. Just take in the landscape. The beaches are amazing.

Will: My co host John,he has recently come to the conclusion that despite liking peated Whisky and liking rum, he does not like rums that are aged in peated Whisky casks.

So as a rum maker from the heart of [01:13:00] peated Whisky production, I ask you, Ben Inglis, is rum aged in peated Whisky casks? Is it overrated, underrated, or is it just misunderstood?

Ben: I think it's probably just misunderstood right now.

Will: You're going to seek to change that a little bit with some of your casks, it sounds like. Alright. And last but not least, when we had Kit Carruthers from Ninefold Distillery on the podcast, he traced his family lineage all the way back to Robert the Bruce. As a rival Scottish distiller, is there any chance that your lineage goes back to John Common III of Badenach, who I understand was the rival of Robert the bruce?

Ben: Definitely not.

Will: No chance. Alright. That's time.

Ben: that's, uh, that was a

good 60

Will: Yeah, a good 60 seconds. yeah. An esteemed performance from you. thank you for being a good sport and being patient. And, I'm nowhere near as good at

John as, as coming up with those questions. So, we'll hopefully have him back very soon so he can take the mantle up once again. thank you so much for spending the time on your, your Friday

afternoon, talking with me here [01:14:00] before I let you go. Is there anything we didn't get to any, um, any news about the distillery, about stuff coming up that you want to let people know about

Ben: I don't think so. We've covered pretty much everything, Yeah.

But, you know, If you're in Scotland or you come to Thailand, you know, pop in and see us, we're always welcome. We're always welcoming, sorry, and keep your eye out for our new release later in the year. So we should, I know your listeners are probably far and wide as well.

I don't know if it's just the States, but we're still working on distribution in the States, but you know, we're, I think we're distributed in about eight different countries now, so hopefully we'll get every corner of New York soon.

Will: You're so new I didn't even want to broach the subject of distribution in the U. S. because I know how, crazy and convoluted and difficult it can be, but, hopefully we will eventually see ILRM in the U. S. That would be very cool. I do know, I think there are still some, Union Moore bottles on the Whisky exchange, which does ship to the

United States, which is how I got this. It was packed impeccably great packing job on their

part. So any [01:15:00] American listeners who are interested in trying that you should be able, probably not for long. Cause like I said, there's only 165 bottles, but I think there's still some on the Whisky exchange if you want to go that route,

But yeah, Ben, thanks so much. It was really great to meet you. Really enjoyed learning more about the distillery and everything you guys have going on and, I'm excited about what's next. So thanks again for stopping

Ben: Thanks very much, Will. Cheers..

All right. Thanks so much everyone for listening to another episode of the Rumcast. As always, we'd love to hear your questions, thoughts, and comments. Takeaways from the episode. If you've tried any rums from Islay Rum Company, we'd love to hear what you think of them. As always, you can send us an email at host at rumcast.

com. That's H O S T at rumcast. com. Or you can hit us up on social media. This is normally where I would say, John, where can they find us on social media? But John is not here. So I will have to hopefully [00:08:00] remember. I believe it is at the rum cast on Facebook, Instagram. Twitter, we're on YouTube now. We, the last episode we did, we published the video of that.

So as I said, we're going to try to do some of these shorter semi blind rum review episodes and release those videos on YouTube. So subscribe to the channel there, check it out as always. If you want even more rum cast, if you want to support the show, you can do that at patrion. com slash the rum cast.

That's P A T R E O N. com slash the rum cast. We're doing. Happy hours. We've got a discord going for rum, uh, rum cast listeners. We've got bonus episodes, all kinds of good stuff. So give that a view if you'd like to learn more and hopefully John is back soon. Actually. I know John is back soon. I said that as if he's embarked on a mysterious journey to which I don't know if he's returning.

He is, he's going to be back soon. We will be back together with a new fresh episode soon. And until then, cheers, everyone.